OFFICIAL REPORT.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

CHRISTCHURCH CORPORATION BILL.

Lords Amendments considered.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Dennis Herbert): In moving that the House doth agree with the Lords Amendments to this Bill, there is one Amendment which requires a little explanation. Except for one of the Amendments, they are all of a drafting nature, and, as hon. Members will see from the Order Paper, I propose, if the House agrees with the Lords Amendment, to move a further Amendment. That is not without precedent, although it is unusual. The House may be interested to know that, in 1893, this House, on a Private Bill, disagreed with certain Lords Amendments, and some of those Amendments passed backwards and forwards, with protests, until, ultimately, the matter was settled. In this particular case, the Amendment in question is one which strikes out the word "registered" in reference to registered slaughter-houses. This Amendment, striking out the word "registered," appears to have been made in another place under a slight misapprehension. It was intended to refer only to slaughter-houses which, prior to the Food and Drugs Act, 1938, were registered slaughter-houses, but, as there were no registered slaughter-houses since the passing of that Act, the word "registered" was struck out. That would have an unfortunate effect, because it would mean that it would extend the power of the Corporation so as to enable them to close slaughter-houses, the owners and occupiers of which had never received notice of the proposal and who were not intended to be affected by it. The result is, therefore, that if the House passes the Lords Amendments, I shall have to ask the House to pass another Amendment,

to add, after the words "slaughter-house," the words:
being a slaughter-house which immediately before the commencement of the Food and Drugs Act, 1938, was a registered slaughter-house.

Lords Amendments, to the Amendment in page 47, line 22, agreed to.

Lords Amendment, in page 47, line 22, leave out "registered," the next Amendment, agreed to.

A consequential Amendment made to the Bill, in page 46, line 23, after the words "slaughter house" by inserting the words:
being a slaughter house which immediately before the commencement of the Food and Drugs Act, 1938, was a registered slaughter house."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.

GOSPORT WATER BILL [Lords.]

As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the Third time.

REGENTS CANAL AND DOCK COMPANY (GRAND JUNCTION CANAL PURCHASE ACT), 1928.

Resolution of the House of the 27th day of July, 1937, relative to the Regents Canal and Dock Company (Grand Junction Canal Purchase) Act, 1928, read, as followeth:
That it shall not be incumbent on the Grand Union Canal Company to promote a Bill to consolidate the Acts relating to the several parts of their undertaking before the Session of 1944, provided that not later than the Session of 1941 they promote an amending Bill with a view to facilitating the task of consolidation.

Resolved, That the said Resolution be amended by the substitution therein of "the Session of 1946" for "the Session of 1944" and of "the Session of 1944" for "the Session of 1941."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Mr. Mander: Can we have some explanation why these alterations have been made?

The Chairman of Ways and Means: I shall be very happy to give an explanation. I will be as brief and as clear as I possibly can.

Mr. Shinwell: On a point of Order. Is it not possible to adopt some other form of dealing with these matters, such as at 7.30 p.m., instead of cutting into Question Time?

Mr. Speaker: This is the time set aside for Private Business. It is very necessary that this should be dealt with. In any case, I would point out that it must come to an end at three o'clock.

The Chairman of Ways and Means: I shall detain the House for only a few minutes. The fact is that the Regents Canal and Dock Company gave an undertaking in 1928 that within five years they would promote a Bill consolidating the Acts relating to several parts of their undertaking. In 1932 the House found it necessary to agree to extend that period of five years to a period of 10 years. Therefore, in 1937 the House passed a Resolution to the effect that notwithstanding that undertaking, as subsequently varied on 12th July, 1932, to the effect that the promoters of the Bill would within 10 years promote a Bill to consolidate the Act, it should not be incumbent on the company to promote such a Bill before the Session of 1944, provided that, not later than the Session of 1941, they should promote an amending Bill with a view to facilitating the task of consolidation. Under the present conditions of emergency, it has been found quite impossible to pass that preliminary Bill, and, therefore, I think it is only reasonable, and, indeed, it is essential, that the further time should be given, which is proposed in this Resolution.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.

WELFARE ORGANISATION (FACTORIES).

Mr. Mander: asked the Minister of Labour his plans for the organisation of welfare work in factories on war work, giving the names of the organisations and persons engaged thereon?

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I am glad to have an opportunity of making a statement on this matter, but, as it is somewhat lengthy, I propose, if I may, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Briefly, I may say that I have established a Factory and Welfare Department, which includes the Factory Department and its staff transferred from the Home Office and also a Factory and Welfare Advisory Board. I am appointing a

number of Welfare Officers to deal locally with welfare outside the factory, and to act in close association with my Labour Supply Committees and with all the local organisations concerned, including the various voluntary organisations who have promised full co-operation and have set up a Central Consultative Committee for this purpose.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: If Members send any letters they receive from their constituents in which, for example, names of mills and factories are given where conditions are not too good, will the Minister see that such letters are not passed on to the mill-owners in question in order that the interests of constituents may be safeguarded?

Mr. Bevin: I think it is preferable for Members to go to their unions and put it into the hands of the local supply board.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: To what extent is it intended that this organisation should cover hours and general conditions outside factories?

Mr. Bevin: The hon. Member had better put that question on the Order Paper.

Mr. J. J. Davidson: If these welfare committees have advisory area committees, will one be set up in Scotland connected with the trade union movement?

Mr. Bevin: There is a Question on the same subject later on.

Following is the statement:

I have established a Factory and Welfare Advisory Board, the membership of which was recently announced, to assist me in stimulating and developing to the fullest extent the health, safety and welfare arrangements inside the factory, and the billeting, feeding and welfare arrangements outside the factory in order to help in maintaining maximum output. I have also established in the Ministry a Factory and Welfare Department, of which the Factory Department transferred from the Home Office forms a part, for the purpose of carrying out the new duties imposed upon me. Divisional and local welfare officers to deal more particularly with welfare arrangements outside the factory are being appointed. The local welfare officers will be attached to the local Labour Supply Committees and will


act in co-operation with the local authorities and the various local voluntary organisations. I am glad to say that I have obtained the co-operation of the national voluntary organisations, who have agreed to set up a Central Consultative Committee for this purpose under the chairmanship of Lady Cynthia Colville.

As regards the organisation of welfare work in the factory, I propose to make a general Order with regard to the hours of women and young persons in factories with a view to preventing excessive hours of work, while at the same time allowing such relaxations of normal peacetime standards as are necessary on urgent priority work. I have under consideration the measures that may be necessary for ensuring the provision of medical, nursing and welfare services so as to secure adequate attention to the health and well-being of the workers and to reduce the risk of breakdown and overstrain. In addition, a manual containing information as to the optimum hours of work with the necessary rest pauses for keeping up output and suggestions to workers on the maintenance of their health and efficiency is being prepared, and steps are being taken to improve the canteen arrangements in factories, a matter on which I am pleased to say I have received, through the British Employers' Confederation, an assurance of the fullest co-operation by employers and their organisations. Arrangements, too, are being made to provide some entertainment for workpeople at meal times and other moments of respite from war work, for which purpose I have also been giving special attention to the important question of lighting and ventilation, and I am taking steps through the factory inspectors to see that the necessary standards in these matters are operated and maintained.

Mr. Davidson: asked the Minister of Labour what specific measures have been taken by the Welfare Committee recently set up by his Department to deal with the social amenities of munition workers in Scotland?

Mr. Bevin: The Factory and Welfare Advisory Board is a central advisory and not an executive body. It is contemplated that specific measures to supplement or modify action already taken in the matter of amenities for workers in any particular area would be secured

through local machinery, and that this will include the special appointment of a regional and at least two local welfare officers for Scotland. A conference of representatives of voluntary organisations is being held in Scotland this week to consider the organisation and co-ordination of voluntary services.

Mr. Davidson: While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that in the past there has been great difficulty in a central organisation dealing with the needs of workers in Scotland, and will he reconsider the position with a view to appointing a Scottish industrial representative on the central committee?

Mr. Bevin: I will bear that in mind.

WORKS ORGANISATION.

Mr. Mander: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider the advisability of promoting amongst firms engaged on war work the setting up of works councils based on trade union organisations, with a view to promoting the utmost degree of conciliation and co-operation?

Mr. Bevin: I have already indicated in various statements my desire that efficient arrangements should exist in all industrial establishments for the purpose of enabling all questions affecting the workpeople to be dealt with smoothly and quickly and for the purpose of co-operating with the organisation I have established for the supply of workpeople to meet present needs. The form of workshop organisation is, in my opinion, a matter to be determined by arrangement between the employers and the unions.

Mr. Mander: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the great importance of letting the workers feel that they are fully consulted and taken into co-operation, and will he use all his influence to see that that is secured?

Mr. Bevin: I have been doing that for 30 years.

FISH DOCKWORKERS.

Mr. Windsor: asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fishing industry of Hull having now almost ceased, he will issue instructions to the Hull Employment Exchange that fish


dockworkers can now be permitted to undertake other work of national importance without having to wait two months?

Mr. Bevin: I should like to make it clear that there is nothing in the Schedule of Reserved Occupations which prevents a man from undertaking any kind of civilian work. The restrictions in the Schedule apply only to acceptance for service in the Armed Forces or for full-time Civil Defence work, and even in such instances are in general removed in the case of a man who has been unemployed for two months. I am considering whether this period of two months should be reduced in appropriate cases.

BUILDING FIRMS.

Mr. Burke: asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any plans designed to utilise firms in the building industry, particularly the smaller firms, many of whom have had to dismiss their employeés owing to lack of orders or inquiries from Government Departments?

Mr. Bevin: The Departments responsible for the letting of building contracts are represented on the Works and Building Priority Committee, and in accordance with that committee's policy are endeavouring to spread such contracts over as wide a range as possible.

Mr. Burke: Is the Minister aware that in February his predecessor promised that something should be done in the matter of the smaller firms, but that today they are still without even inquiries for estimates, while three or four large firms have all the work throughout the country?

Mr. Bevin: I am not responsible for the allocation of the orders for building. I can only refer my hon. Friend to the Building Priority Committee. If he will put down a Question a little later, I will look into the matter more deeply.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Cannot the small people be given a chance to do war work, as the big people are getting a monopoly?

Mr. Neil Maclean: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a large number of contracts have been handed out to a very few large contractors without their sending in any tenders, while the small firms have been completely neglected?

Mr. Bevin: I will look into the matter, but I would remind my hon. Friend that it is the contracts Department and not my Department which allocates these orders.

CENTRAL REGISTER.

Mr. Lyons: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will take steps to mobilise for national service the many persons whose names have been enrolled on the Central Register and others who are ready and willing to engage themselves in the war effort but who have received no suggestion of employment; whether he will arrange for them to be considered by qualification at once, and set up machinery whereby a great number of those persons of varying ages can be utilised forthwith?

Mr. Bevin: The purpose of the Central Register has been to keep a record of persons with scientific, technical, professional or higher administrative qualifications who have offered their services, with a view to submitting such persons for posts, mainly in Government Departments, where their professional or other qualifications would be of service. The great majority of persons enrolled on the Central Register are already in employment. It must, however, be recognised that, however valuable these qualifications are in peace time, many of them are not in demand in war time. I am therefore taking immediate steps to bring to the notice of such persons other ways in which they can usefully serve the country at the present time. I should point out that, apart from such opportunities as are offered by the Armed Forces and Civil Defence services, these would for the most part be in the nature of manual work. I am issuing a notice on the subject to-day, and, with my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate a copy in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Lyons: Is it not a fact that a large number of the people whose names are on the Central Register are not in employment at all, and that when employment is given in a Government Department the people are chosen from outside and are put on the Register for appearance sake? Is he also aware that there are thousands of people ready and willing to work in the national interest who get no more than a postcard acknowledgment?

Mr. Bevin: I have made investigation personally into the position of the Central Register, and I find that nearly 90 per cent. of the people are in fact in employment. I have no knowledge of the latter part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's statement. It has certainly not occurred since I have been in office.

Mr. Lyons: Will my right hon. Friend look into the matter?

Following is the notice:
At the present time very many offers of service are being received at the Ministry of Labour and National Service, and the Minister wishes to thank everyone who has volunteered to help in the present emergency. There is, in this country, a large reserve of labour not directly employed on work connected with the war. War conditions have led to the dislocation of many peace-time activities, and many workers cannot be found employment in their normal sphere of activity. This applies in particular to many professional and business men and women whose special ability is not required for the war industries. It is, therefore, inevitable that many such persons will not be able to find any post during the war in which their special knowledge can be put at the country's disposal. There are, however, many ways in which such persons can serve their country at the present time if they are willing to take on jobs which are arduous and probably quite different from any job which they would have ever considered under peace-time conditions.

Men.

For men, there are, in the first place openings in the ranks of the Armed Forces, particularly for many kinds of skilled tradesmen not at present employed on work of national importance and in the Royal Navy (Patrol Service) for fishermen or men with similar experience. There are also many openings in the Civil Defence services such as Auxiliary Police and Auxiliary Fire Service under local authorities, for civilian police and store-keepers in Service and Supply Departments and in forestry and for male domestic staff at emergency hospitals. There is also a big demand for semi-skilled workers for work on aircraft and armaments production, for which courses of training at Government training centres are available. Allowances are paid during training and suitable men can thereby qualify themselves, after about four months, for employment in semiskilled work in the manufacture of munitions. Civilian instructors, particularly in the trades of wireless, armament engine and air frame fitters are also urgently needed at Royal Air Force training establishments.

Women.

In the case of women, urgent demands exist for cooks, clerks, orderlies, motor drivers, storewomen, teleprinters and telephonists in the Auxiliary Territorial Service; for teleprinters, cooks, mess and kitchen staff, and women with good general education as clerks for special duties in the Women's Auxiliary

Air Force; and for accountants, clerks, typists and kitchen staff in the Women's Royal Naval Service; for mobile members of the Civil Nursing Reserve, for workers in Government store establishments; for domestic staff in emergency hospitals; for drivers and attendants for ambulances attached to casualty services of local authorities; for attendants in first aid posts; and for recruits for the Women's Land Army.

All these jobs mean hard work and long hours, but they are of vital importance for the defence of the country. Most of the jobs will entail living away from home. Volunteers for the Armed Forces should apply to any Navy, Army or Air Force recruiting centre; application to join the Royal Navy Patrol Service should be made to the nearest registrar, Royal Naval Reserve or to the fishery office at a port. The addresses of these offices may be obtained from any Employment Exchange or police station. Those who wish to offer their services in a civilian capacity should register at their nearest Employment Exchange and state precisely what they are willing to do in the present emergency and particularly whether they are prepared to leave home. A certain amount of time must be taken to fit persons who offer their services into appropriate jobs, but if volunteers find that they cannot be fitted, within reasonable time, into their first choice, they should not hesitate to apply for some other post where there may not be similar delay. In the meantime, if they are now in employment they should remain in such employment until they are approached by the Employment Exchange. No one need hesitate to register for employment at an Employment Exchange since the Exchanges constitute the recognised Government machinery for the proper distribution of the nation's manpower.

TRAINING.

Dobbie: asked the Minister of Labour what is the present position with regard to recruitment for the Government training centres?

Mr. Bevin: The number of civilians in training at the Government training centres is now about 10,700. This is a record number. It is nearly 1,000 more than a week ago and nearly 2,000 more than a fortnight ago. In the last four weeks more than 6,000 men have been sent forward to training centres. This is also a record, but we need many thousands more. Those awaiting entry into training will be quickly absorbed, and a continuous flow of applicants will be needed to keep the centres at full strength and to fill the new places which are being provided. Shift working is being introduced and new centres are being established, and greatly increased numbers, both of men for training and of instructors, are required. The shortage of fully qualified instructors is at present the


most serious factor limiting the increase of the numbers in training. I hope any fully skilled fitters, machine operators and instrument makers, who are not only highly skilled craftsmen but can also impart their knowledge to others and who are not at present employed on work of vital importance, will come forward at once for this most important work.

Mr. Benjamin Smith: When these trainees are given work will they be put on to useful production, that is, on things that can be used in the war and not on mere matters that are ultimately wasted?

Mr. Bevin: The whole of the schedule for training has been changed to bring it into strict conformity with the immediate placing of men in war industry.

Major Leighton: Is my right hon. Friend taking steps to train women instead of men of military age?

Mr. Bevin: Not in the training centres. We are trying to establish a system by which large works take a proportion of women to train. That is the best place for training women for the kind of work which they will have to do in factories.

Miss Rathbone: Is use being made of the central committee for the employment of women, which has done good work but which is not being fully utilised?

BUILDING TRADE OPERATIVES.

Mr. Cary: asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any statement to make in regard to the deputation which waited upon him on Monday last and which represented 250,000 unemployed operatives in the building trades; and how he proposes to utilise, without further delay, this immense pool of skilful and patriotic labour for getting greater drive into the national war effort?

Mr. Bevin: The deputation referred to represented certain unemployed building trade workers in the London area. I do not understand my hon. Friend's reference to 250,000 unemployed operatives in the building trades. The total number in these trades unemployed at the date of the returns for 20th May was 87,226, of whom about half were skilled operatives. The indications are that there has since been a substantial reduction in this number. Energetic steps are being taken to transfer to important Government work

skilled operatives of the types required. The new agreement on wages and conditions, including the question of travelling and subsistence allowances, on important Government work will be of great assistance in the task of moving labour to places away from home where it is required. Furthermore, the Undertakings (Restriction on Engagement) Order which has recently come into force is being administered in such a way as to ensure that for the future unemployed labour in this industry will be utilised in preference to the admission of workers from other industries.

BANK OFFICERS' GUILD.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: asked the Minister of Labour what steps he proposes to take to have the Bank Officers' Guild recognised as the negotiating authority for all bank employès now the joint stock banks have come under State control?

Mr. Bevin: I have received representations on this subject from the Bank Officers' Guild, and the matter is under consideration.

Mr. Hall: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this is a long-standing grievance and that the banks have long been out of touch with modern practice?

Mr. Bevin: I have that well in mind.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE.

DEFENSIVE WORKS (LABOUR).

Mr. Bernays: asked the Minister of Labour whether, with a view to the speedy carrying out of urgent defensive works against possible enemy landings, he will invite the mayors in the areas concerned to make an appeal for voluntary labour, particularly in the evenings and during the week-ends, to supplement the work already being done by whole-time personnel?

Mr. Bevin: I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, regarding this matter, and will communicate with my hon. Friend at an early date.

ROADS (CIVILIAN TRAFFIC).

Sir Stanley Reed: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the national emergency and the embarrassment to the


military caused by the public using roads and streets, he will consider issuing orders banning all, save the military and auxiliary services, from all thoroughfares during air raids, the landing of troops from aeroplanes, and any form of invasion?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): All practicable steps are being taken to ensure that in the event of hostile attack the movement of troops is not impeded by unnecessary traffic on the roads.

PERSONNEL.

Mr. Higgs: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that, after weeks of recruiting in Birmingham for essential Civil Defence services, the applications received are inadequate; and what steps he intends to take to make good this deficiency?

Sir J. Anderson: I am aware that special difficulty is being experienced in Birmingham in recruiting volunteers for the Civil Defence services, and that although a considerable number of recruits have responded to my recent appeal there are still deficiencies in some services. I am keeping a close watch on the position throughout the country, and I shall not hesitate to take such steps as I think necessary to arrest further wastage of personnel from these services. Meanwhile, however, it is essential that the local authority should continue to make every effort to bring home to local residents the possible consequences of failure to man their services adequately.

Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister aware that the recent appeal produced only one-tenth of the necessary recruits, and that the existing A.R.P. services cannot be fully manned?

Mr. Quibell: Is the Minister also aware that great discouragement is felt by those who have volunteered, by reason of the lack of proper A.R.P. equipment?

Sir J. Anderson: No, Sir, I do not agree with that at all. Equipment is available for the authorised establishment—

Mr. Quibell: Oh no.

Sir J. Anderson: —but it has not been issued in respect of reserves in excess of those authorised.

Mr. Quibell: I will give the Minister proof of what I say.

Mr. Charles Brown: Could the right hon. Gentleman send the Lord President of the Council to Birmingham?

Mr. Quibell: And send him to Scunthorpe too. It is a wilful misrepresentation.

Mr. Windsor: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the drastic reduction in the number of paid air-raid precautions workers in the Hull district; and whether he will take steps to allay public apprehension because of the substitution of volunteers for full-time and skilled personnel?

Sir J. Anderson: I am not aware of any drastic reduction in the number of paid Civil Defence volunteers in Hull or of any cause for public apprehension. I am, however, arranging for local inquiry to be made.

Mr. George Griffiths: Is not the Minister aware that in some localities the drastic cut has been 50 per cent.?

Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir, that is certainly so in the case of paid wardens; and it was the general wish of this House, made clear on many occasions, that the strength of that service should be cut down.

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that resignations of personnel in the Civil Defence services are seriously affecting their efficiency; and what action he proposes immediately to take?

Sir J. Anderson: I am aware that the loss of personnel due to calling up for military service and other causes is giving rise to concern in some areas. I made a special appeal for volunteers two weeks ago, and I have taken action to prevent further wastage among whole-time members of the A.F.S. and to maintain the strength of this service. I am keeping a close watch on the position in other branches of the Civil Defence organisation.

Mr. Simmonds: Is it not a fact that considerable personnel are resigning for causes other than that they are being called up, and does not my right hon. Friend think the time has arrived to give A.R.P. officials power to refuse to accept resignations?

Sir J. Anderson: Measures are being taken to prevent further wastage, including matters relating to pay and a further extension of the principle of compulsion.

Mr. Shinwell: When the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that there is inefficiency due to reduction of personnel, or to some other cause, what action does he take?

Sir J. Anderson: Action of the kind which I have indicated.

Mr. Shinwell: Yes, but does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman still persists in voluntary action when it leads to inefficiency?

Sir J. Anderson: The hon. Gentleman cannot have listened to my supplementary answer, in which I said that the action included a further extension of the principle of compulsion.

Mr. Higgs: Why not apply compulsion forthwith?

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Home Secretary the current number of vacancies to bring the Civil Defence forces to full strength, and the weekly increase in personnel over the four weeks' period most recently elapsed for which figures are available?

Sir J. Anderson: The position varies widely between different areas, and, as the Civil Defence organisation is essentially a local service, any statement of deficiencies or surpluses in any particular service for the country as a whole would be misleading. The services are, of course, largely dependent upon part-time volunteers, and appeals have been made for additional recruits. There are, however, some deficiencies in the number of whole-time paid members of the services in certain areas, and active steps are being taken locally to increase the strengths according to local needs. Figures are not available centrally, showing the weekly changes in personnel, but, in the first week following my special appeal, about 28,000 persons responded, and volunteers are still coming forward.

Mr. Simmonds: If this service is of any national importance at all, is there not a danger when these vacancies continue in the service, and does not my right hon. Friend think that the spirit of the nation now demands that a measure of compulsion be introduced in areas where the

voluntary principle does not succeed? [An HON. MEMBER: "Low wages."]

Sir J. Anderson: Questions of pay are one of the matters concerned, but I would make it clear that the principle of compulsion has been applied already to a certain extent, and that a further extension is being considered. With regard to voluntary and part-time personnel, the principle of compulsion is very difficult in practice.

Mr. Simmonds: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the country expects prompt action to be taken in this matter?

Mr. Gallacher: Is it not a fact that if Birmingham had better representatives, it would get better A.R.P.?

Mr. Lipson: Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that, in any area where the A.R.P. service is not up to the strength required, he will apply the principle of compulsion?

Sir J. Anderson: I cannot give an undertaking of that character, and I suggest that my hon. Friend read my answer.

MESSENGER SERVICE.

Mr. Higgs: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the absence of financial provision for messengers will make Civil Defence services unworkable if telephones are put out of action; and is he prepared to give the necessary assistance?

Sir J. Anderson: The Civil Defence organisation already includes provision for a messenger service. I am not aware that the effectiveness of this service is hampered by financial considerations, but the arrangements for messengers are at present under review, and I shall be glad to consider any particular difficulties which my hon. Friend may have in mind.

DRIVING LICENCES.

Colonel Burton: asked the Home Secretary whether he will cause an order to be issued to the effect that any person driving a motor vehicle must carry and produce their driving licence when called upon, either by the military or police, in order that it may be compared with their identification card and thereby form an additional safeguard against unauthorised persons using the roads?

Sir J. Anderson: I agree that the production of a driving licence may serve as a useful check on a person's identity and that motorists should, therefore, in their own interests, carry their licences with them. A driver who, on being stopped, is unable to satisfy the constable or sentry as to his identity is liable, under the Defence Regulations, to be detained for inquiries.

Mr. Benjamin Smith: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that under the law as it stands a driver is allowed five days in which to produce his licence?

Sir J. Anderson: I am well aware of that, but the fact that the possession of a licence will help very considerably in identifying a driver should, I think, be a sufficient inducement to drivers to carry their licences with them.

Mr. Smith: Ought not the right hon. Gentleman to issue a notice informing the whole of the motoring public?

Sir J. Anderson: No doubt this Question and answer will attract some public attention.

INTERNEES.

Mr. Cocks: asked the Home Secretary the number of British citizens who have been interned?

Sir J. Anderson: The number at present detained is approximately 750.

Mr. Cocks: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are plenty of people at large who ought to be interned and that the general impression is that the Home Office are not sufficiently active in this matter?

Sir J. Anderson: Those who have that impression are not aware of the facts.

Colonel Burton: asked the Home Secretary the number of enemy aliens who have been released from internment since 1st September, 1939?

Sir J. Anderson: The number is approximately 340. These include children of 16 and 17 who have been released to continue their school education, nuns who have been allowed to return to their convents, technicians wanted for special work of national importance, and some persons who have been released after close investigation of their cases by the Advisory Committee.

Colonel Burton: Have any of these people been re-interned?

Sir J. Anderson: There may be one or two cases.

AIR-RAID SHELTERS.

Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: asked the Home Secretary whether instructions have been issued to local authorities to complete their air-raid shelter programmes within the next few weeks and that thereafter the construction of further shelter will not be authorised?

Sir J. Anderson: While local authorities are being strongly pressed to carry their programmes to completion, it does not seem to me that any advantage would be gained by threatening to penalise the inhabitants of an area in which, at any given date, the programme remained incomplete.

Mr. Roberts: Can the Minister give an assurance that no such threat has been made?

Sir J. Anderson: No such threat has been made.

Mr. Mathers: asked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the position of the landward parts of the burghs of Bo'ness comprising Castleloan, Newtown, Carriden and Muirhouses, in respect of Anderson or other shelters; and whether he is now prepared to comply with the request that such shelters should be provided?

Sir J. Anderson: I understand that these places are represented to be so much a part of Bo'ness that they ought to be treated in the same way as the burgh. No further supplies of the standard steel shelter are available, but if the responsible local authority favours the construction of domestic shelter in some alternative form, I shall offer no objection.

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the President of the Board of Education whether steps are being taken to compel local education authorities to provide adequate air-raid shelters in all reception areas?

The President of the Board of Education (Mr. Ramsbotham): No, Sir. The matter is one for the discretion of the local education authority in consultation with the local A.R.P. authority.

Mr. Davies: Is the Minister aware that children are received in reception areas where there is no air-raid shelter provided by the local authority, whereas there are air-raid precautions in the district from which they come?

Mr. Ramsbotham: I am sure that the authorities are taking appropriate steps.

WOMEN'S AUXILIARY SERVICE (MISS MARY ALLEN).

Mr. Glenvil Hall: asked the Home Secretary whether Miss Mary Allen still represents the Women's Auxiliary Service on the Advisory Council of Women's Voluntary Services for Civil Defence, set up under the auspices of his Department?

Sir J. Anderson: I am informed that, when Women's Voluntary Services for Civil Defence came into being two years ago at the request of my predecessor in office, the Women's Auxiliary Service was one of a large number of voluntary organisations invited to be represented on the Advisory Council. I understand that this organisation has, in fact, been represented on a number of occasions in the past by Miss Mary Allen, but that neither she nor any other representative of the Women's Auxiliary Service has attended a meeting of the Council since January last.

Mr. Hall: May I take it from that answer that this lady will not be asked to further meetings and that she is to be interned, in view of the facts that she has boasted openly that she is a Fascist and proud of it, and that she is now living on the coast?

Sir J. Anderson: Questions relating to individuals had much better be put on the Paper.

Mr. Hall: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he has answered the Question? I want to know whether this lady is still able to attend these meetings when she so desires?

Sir J. Anderson: The position is that organisations which were invited to be represented on the Central Council were left to choose their own representatives on the occasion of a particular meeting. I think it will be found that I have answered the Question on the Paper. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The supplementary question relates to a different matter altogether.

Mr. Hall: Further to that answer—

Mr. Speaker: rose—

Hall: On a point of Order. Am I not entitled to an answer to my question?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member had better put a further question on the Paper.

Mr. Maclean: The question asked of the right hon. Gentleman was whether this lady was still permitted to attend these meetings. That question has not been answered, and I suggest that the House is anxious to know the answer.

Mr. Speaker: The question should be put upon the Paper.

At the end of Questions—

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Mr. Speaker, may I ask for your guidance? It will be recollected that during Question Time, I put a Question to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, asking him whether Miss Mary Allen still represents the Women's Auxiliary Service on the Advisory Council of Women's Voluntary Services for Civil Defence. He told me, in effect, that neither she nor any other representative of that organisation had attended any recent meetings. May I put it to you that that is not a reply to my Question; and, as this lady publicly announces that she is a Fascist, and as this is a Government Department dealing with Civil Defence, may I ask you whether, if I put a Question down again to the Home Secretary, you will instruct the Clerk at the Table to pass it?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member had better put the Question down in a different form. An answer was given to the Question on the Paper, although it did not satisfy the hon. Member.

RESPIRATORS (MINERS).

Mr. Tinker: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that mineworkers are complaining about having to use the same gas mask at home that they use at work; and whether he will consider allowing two gas masks to persons who are engaged in occupations where the gas mask is likely to get covered with dust?

Sir J. Anderson: I am advised that the dust will not affect the efficiency of the respirator, and I am afraid I cannot authorise the issue of two respirators to


one man. I understand, however, that in many areas metal containers have been provided for masks which are taken down the mine.

Mr. Tinker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when a miner comes home with his gas mask and uses it, his face is covered with coal? Surely a collier is not expected to undergo that inconvenience. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider this question.

Sir J. Anderson: Other people have raised a similar question. The general public have been provided individually with a gas mask, in every case at the public expense, and surely there is very little ground for complaint.

EIRE AND NORTHERN IRELAND.

Mr. Cocks: asked the Home Secretary what reply he has made to the repeated representations of the Government of Northern Ireland on the dangers of the unrestricted right of entry into that country from Southern Ireland?

Sir J. Anderson: I explained in reply to questions on 20th June the result of my consultations with the Government of Northern Ireland on this subject.

Mr. Cocks: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister in the Northern Ireland Government said that they had no control whatever over the frontier, and had made representations to the Imperial Government on the matter?

Sir J. Anderson: In his Question the hon. Gentleman referred to "repeated representations." I have not the slightest idea what he has in mind.

Mr. Logan: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that the whole of Ireland becomes united?

Sir J. Anderson: That is not my responsibility.

Mr. Cocks: On a point of Order. May I put this question to the Home Secretary—

Mr. Speaker: We must get on with Questions.

IDENTITY CARDS.

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: asked the Minister of Health whether he will order a photograph of the bearer to

be attached to identity cards, and make the failure to show such cards on challenge by a competent person an offence?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Horsbrugh): I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that the affixing of a photograph on an identity card would be a source of danger rather than of safety unless it were properly authenticated as that of the true holder of the card. As stated in my right hon. Friend's reply of 6th June to the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett), the whole subject has been under examination, with a view to providing additional means of authenticating the holder of an identity card; and an announcement upon the subject will be made as soon as possible.

Sir A. Knox: Does the hon. Member agree that these identity cards, as at present used, are absolutely futile as a means of controlling the population?

Miss Horsbrugh: I think my hon. and gallant Friend will realise that it would be more dangerous if a person could get a card which did not belong to him and put his own photograph on it.

Sir A. Knox: Surely you can get people to put their photographs on these cards, as they do on passports?

Miss Horsbrugh: I think that if my hon. and gallant Friend will await the further scheme, he will see the dangers and difficulties that might occur if we adopted his suggestion.

Mr. De la Bère: Will my hon. Friend take some note of the repeated suggestions which have been made by me on this matter?

EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE.

Captain Sir Ian Fraser: asked the Minister of Health whether he will state that the Emergency Medical Service is prepared to approve of the employment of blind persons who are qualified in massage and/or medical electricity under the same conditions as sighted members of this profession?

Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, Sir. I hope that many blind persons who are qualified and suitable for this work will be found employment in the hospitals.

Oral Answers to Questions — MILITARY SERVICE.

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.

Sir A. Knox: asked the Minister of Labour how many conscientious objectors placed by Tribunals on the register on condition that they undertook work of national importance, have now found and are occupied in such work, and how many have remained in their former occupation?

Mr. Bevin: I am taking steps to obtain the information asked for by my hon. and gallant Friend and will communicate it to him as soon as possible.

Mr. Lewis: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the Norwich City Council reported, on 18th June, that at least 40 per cent. of the members of their staff affected by military registration have registered as conscientious objectors; and whether he will have inquiries made to see what subversive influence is at work in the city of Norwich to bring about this state of affairs?

Sir J. Anderson: My hon. Friend has been given an erroneous figure. My information is that 125 men of the staff of the Norwich Corporation have registered for military service or joined the Forces voluntarily, and that the number who have registered as conscientious objectors is 16, of whom four are undertaking non-combatant service in the R.A.M.C. My inquiries do not indicate that there are grounds for suspecting the existence in this city of special influences of a subversive character, but, in present circumstances, the danger that pacifist propaganda may be misused for purposes prejudicial to the national interest cannot be ignored, and this matter is receiving my close attention.

Oral Answers to Questions — COMMUNAL FEEDING AND DAY NURSERIES.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: asked the Minister of Labour what provision he is making for communal feeding centres; for whom such provision is intended; what arrangements for nursery centres he is contemplating; and in what types of area?

Mr. Bevin: I am urgently considering with the other Ministries concerned the provision, as necessary, of facilities for communal feeding for workers in indus-

try, particularly in those areas where large numbers of women are employed in Government and other factories concerned with war production. In the same areas I am arranging with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, through the maternity and child welfare authorities, for the provision of day nurseries.

Mr. Lindsay: Is it the job of the Ministry of Labour or the Ministry of Health or the Board of Education to do these tasks? Hitherto they have been done by the last two Departments. Do I understand that the Minister of Labour is taking over this valuable work and doing it for workers, whether they are in munition works or other factories?

Mr. Bevin: I am not taking it over. My task is to decide the need and then to arrange for the other Departments to carry out the task.

Mr. Lindsay: asked the President of the Board of Education what provision he is making for communal feeding centres, and how many such centres are in active operation; what arrangements he is making for nursery centres, and how many such centres are in existence?

Mr. Ramsbotham: I am not clear whether my hon. Friend is referring to the communal feeding of school children generally or to the provision of communal meals for evacuated children. The possibility of extending communal feeding arrangements for school children generally is at present under consideration. About 100 new centres have been established for evacuated school children; and in addition meals for such children are in many cases being provided by an extension of existing canteen arrangements. Proposals for seven nursery centres for evacuated children under five years of age have been approved and three more proposals are under consideration. The question of providing nursery centres for children under five who have recently been evacuated is being investigated, but the number of such children in any one district is not as a rule large enough to justify the establishment of a nursery centre. In some areas evacuated children under five have been admitted to the infants' departments of public elementary schools.

Mr. Lindsay: Is the Minister satisfied, now that there are three Departments responsible for communal feeding and also for nursery centres, that there is no


overlapping? Will he say whether the Committee under the presidency of the Lord Privy Seal is looking into this matter?

Mr. Ramsbotham: I do not think there is any danger of overlapping.

Oral Answers to Questions — TAILORING TRADES (WAGES).

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will take action to prevent the gross under-payment of young workers in tailoring and similar trades who are paid low wages when they continue to be falsely classified as learners by their employers?

Mr. Bevin: Minimum rates of wages are in operation under the Trade Boards Acts in the tailoring and other sewing trades. I have no reason to suppose that the minimum rates of wages laid down by the trade boards are not generally observed. If my hon. Friend has particular cases in mind and will let me have particulars, I shall be glad to look into them.

Oral Answers to Questions — NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

Mr. Dunn: asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that widespread dissatisfaction is prevailing amongst soldiers' wives and families in the Rother Valley division owing to periods of delay in making awards by the War Grants Advisory Committee and the meagre amounts granted; and will he take steps to speed up the procedure?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions (Miss Wilkinson): I cannot do better than refer the hon. Member to the very full statement which I made on these matters in the Debate on 25th instant.

Mr. Dobbie: Has the Minister anything further to add in regard to the meagre amounts paid and the future policy of the Ministry of Pensions?

Miss Wilkinson: My hon. Friend will recollect that I called attention to this matter in my speech, and I am sure that notice will be taken of it by those concerned.

Oral Answers to Questions — INDIA (POLITICAL SITUATION).

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any statement to make respecting conversations between the Viceroy, Mr. Gandhi and Mr. Jinnah on the political situation in India?

The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): I have no statement to make. The conversation with Mr. Jinnah is taking place to-day and that with Mr. Gandhi not till Saturday next.

Mr. Sorensen: If I put down a Question this time next week, will the right hon. Gentleman then be able to give some report on the conversations?

Mr. Amery: It is possible.

Oral Answers to Questions — WORKERS, NIGHT SHIFTS (BEER).

Mr. Higgs: asked the Home Secretary whether he will relax restrictions so that men working on night shifts can obtain beer in canteens and similar places during their interval for meals?

Sir J. Anderson: The Licensing Act of 1910 contains certain powers which can be and often have been utilised for this purpose, and I have not so far heard of any difficulties except at certain works in the Birmingham area. I propose to consult with the authorities in that area as to the action necessary to meet these difficulties, and I will inform my hon. Friend of the result.

Oral Answers to Questions — CORONERS (POWERS OF DELEGATION).

Major Milner: asked the Home Secretary whether any powers of delegation, or otherwise, have been given to coroners to enable them to continue to certify the cause of death, in view of the possible large increase in deaths in the immediate future due to enemy action?

Sir J. Anderson: I would refer my hon. Friend to the provisions of Regulation 30 of the Defence Regulations, which has been in force since the outbreak of war.

Major Milner: Will the right hon. Gentleman send me a copy?

Sir J. Anderson: Certainly.

Oral Answers to Questions — RESTAURANTS AND BOTTLE PARTIES.

Mr. Denville: asked the Home Secretary why, in the present critical times, bottle parties are allowed to continue?

Sir T. Moore: asked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the economy which would be effected in the consumption of coal, gas and electric current, both for light and power, as well as in food and other commodities, if the restaurants of London were closed at midnight as proposed by the Hotels and Restaurants Association, and bottle parties simultaneously suppressed; and whether he will give the matter his immediate attention?

Sir J. Anderson: I have had under consideration the communication from the Hotels and Restaurants Association mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore). While for certain types of restaurants earlier closing would in existing circumstances be advantageous, there are others which meet the legitimate needs of those whose duties necessitate their getting meals late at night or in the early hours of the morning, and on my present information I could not recommend a general prohibition which would prevent any person from obtaining meals in restaurants after midnight.

Mr. Denville: Could not the right hon. Gentleman make, regulations that only certain places should be allowed to continue open after 12 o'clock at night, recognising that it is the bottle parties which have to be dealt with?

Sir J. Anderson: The question of bottle parties has been under consideration for some time, and a regulation is in process of being drafted.

Mr. Thorne: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us of any cases in which wage earners have been attending bottle parties?

Sir J. Anderson: I think they attend places of the kind referred to in the Question.

Oral Answers to Questions — DETENTION OF A MEMBER.

Captain Shaw: asked the Home Secretary whether a charge has now been framed against the hon. and gallant

Member for Midlothian and Peebles (Captain Ramsay); whether the appeal to the Advisory Committee has been heard; and, if so, what was the result of the appeal?

Sir J. Anderson: As I have previously explained, there is no question of framing a charge against a person in connection with his detention by an order under Defence Regulation 18B, but an obligation rests on the Chairman of the Advisory Committee to furnish such a person with information to enable him to put his case before the Committee. This information has been furnished to the hon. and gallant Member, and I understand that the Advisory Committee have arranged to hear his case next week.

Mr. Maxton: Are people in this position allowed the normal services of a legal adviser?

Sir J. Anderson: To the best of my belief, yes, but the matter is within the discretion of the Advisory Committee.

Oral Answers to Questions — "VOICE OF SPAIN."

Mr. Hannah: asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the editorial attacks made in the periodical, "Voice of Spain," upon this country's war effort and in view of its hostility to our new ambassador to Spain, he will suppress this publication forthwith?

Sir J. Anderson: I have been in consultation on this subject with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Information, and I am communicating to my hon. Friend the result of that consultation.

Miss Rathbone: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that "Voice of Spain" makes a valuable contribution to the nation's war effort by enabling the public to know of German and Italian propaganda in Spain?

Mr. Shinwell: Could an arrangement be made so that the result of the consultation to which the right hon. Gentleman referred could be made available to hon. Members?

Sir J. Anderson: I have said so.

Oral Answers to Questions — "THE LINK."

Mr. Davidson: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that ex-members of the pro-Nazi organisation


"The Link," met in London last week, and discussed the question of peace terms under a sympathetic Government; and whether he has any statement to make?

Sir J. Anderson: I have no information to confirm the statement to this effect which was published in a newspaper, but if my hon. Friend has any information, I should be glad to receive it.

Mr. Davidson: Since I gave the right hen. Gentleman the statement, has he made full investigation into it? Can he also say whether Admiral Domvile and his son, well-known Fascist sympathisers, are still at large, and is he aware that Major Davidson-Houston is indulging in Fascist propaganda with Scottish Committees at this moment?

Sir J. Anderson: With regard to the first part of the question, the newspaper statement which the hon. Gentleman sent to me is singularly uninformative, and I have not been able to obtain any confirmation of the bald statement which appeared in it. As regards the remainder of the question, I suggest to hon. Members that supplementary questions relating to particular individuals are very difficult for any Minister to answer without notice.

Mr. Davidson: Are the suggestions contained in the supplementary question beyond the Minister's comprehension with a view to further action?

Sir J. Anderson: No, Sir, but I have asked for certain matters of fact, and I do not think it is fair to me or to certain persons concerned to answer without notice.

Mr. Davidson: I am more concerned with clearing them out.

Oral Answers to Questions — REFUGEES.

Mr. G. Strauss: asked the Home Secretary what action has been taken in regard to the Spanish refugees who had been serving with the French Army in Flanders and were evacuated to this country from Dunkirk; and what use it is now intended to make of their services?

Sir J. Anderson: A number of men stated to belong to French labour companies and claiming to be Spanish citizens have recently arrived in this country. As they were not in uniform

and possessed no papers, they were detained as a measure of security pending inquiries. These inquiries are now proceeding, and a decision will shortly be reached as to their disposal.

Mr. Strauss: Is it a fact that many of these men who have been serving with the French army have in fact been put into prison and treated as prisoners? Further, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that many of these men are the brave men, referred to by the Prime Minister, who fought against Fascism?

Sir J. Anderson: If temporary action is called for as a measure of security, the only means at my disposal is that of imprisonment.

Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the right hon. Gentleman clear this matter up as quickly as possible, in view of the fact that these men are known to be volunteers who recently risked their lives for the Allied cause?

Sir J. Anderson: The trouble is, as I said, that these men had no uniform and no papers. These inquiries must be made, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that they will be made as expeditiously as possible.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Home Secretary whether French refugees are subject to the same inquiries, certification and restriction as other refugees; what progress is being made towards organising and co-ordinating offers of work and service made by refugees of all nationalities affected; and whether he will appoint a special committee to deal with this problem and the valuable results that might accrue from refugee service?

Sir J. Anderson: French war refugees, on their arrival in this country, are subject to the same control as refugees of other nationalities. As regards the second and third parts of the Question, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is considering in consultation with the other Ministers concerned, the best arrangements for finding employment for refugees of all nationalities. As at present advised, I do not think it is necessary to appoint another committee for this purpose.

Mr. Sorensen: Seeing that already a number of scientific workers who are refugees have been released, could not


other refugees who are workers, but not necessarily scientific workers, be released on the same basis?

Sir J. Anderson: I am making arrangements to review this case as speedily as possible, but when the numbers run, as they do, into tens of thousands it is a matter of considerable difficulty.

Oral Answers to Questions — SECRET SESSIONS.

Mr. Thurtle: asked the Prime Minister whether any Minister or Ministers are asked to take note of important suggestions or criticisms made in the course of a Secret Session; and whether he is aware that without some such system of note-taking many helpful suggestions and criticisms are likely to be without effect?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): can assure my hon. Friend that any suggestion or criticism of importance which may be made in the course of a Secret Session is noted by the Minister concerned and receives careful consideration.

Mr. Thurtle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it may frequently happen that the Minister responsible is not present, and will arrangements be made in such cases whereby some other Minister can take notes?

Mr. Attlee: The Minister always arranges that there is someone who will be listening and who will be able to inform him of what has happened.

Mr. Logan: What happens if he is unable to take a mental note?

Captain Bellenger: In that case, has a note been taken by the Lord President of the Council as to a certain matter raised in regard to the resignation of the late Secretary for War, and will any statement be made on that subject?

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE.

PRICES.

Colonel Burton: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will be in a position to state the prices which the Government will guarantee for farming and dairy produce, and also for poultry

and eggs, prior to the date upon which the minimum agricultural wages come into operation?

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): I hope to be in a position to make an announcement on this subject in a broadcast on Saturday evening.

Mr. Lees-Smith: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it necessary that a very important statement like this should be kept from the House and reserved for a broadcast?

Mr. Hudson: I had hoped to be able to announce it this afternoon. There was every intention to make a statement in answer to a Private Notice Question; but the matter is frightfully complicated, and I am very sorry to say that it was not possible to make the announcement in that way. I apologise to the House, but in the circumstances I am afraid it was impossible.

HYDROPONICS.

Mr. T. Smith: asked the Minister of Agriculture to what extent soilless cultivation is being developed commercially or otherwise in this country; and whether, in view of the need for intensive production of certain foodstuffs, any encouragement is given to this method of cultivation?

Mr. Hudson: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my predecessor to a similar question on 4th April last, to which I have nothing to add. The position is being kept under review.

Mr. Smith: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that this new idea is being investigated by his Department? Will he also take into account the fact that a good many industrialists opposed the idea because it was new, rather than because it was unsound?

Mr. Hudson: I can assure the House that the matter is being kept under review.

Oral Answers to Questions — BOARDING SCHOOL HOLIDAYS.

Mr. Cary: asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that schools where children are boarded will be breaking up next month; and, therefore, while communications and transport are still


reasonably good, will he issue instructions that pupils up to the age of 16 are to be returned to parents at once, unless their homes are within the prescribed danger zone of the East Coast?

Mr. Ramsbotham: Neither my right hon. Friend the Minister of Home Security, whom I have consulted, nor I think it desirable that any such general instructions should be issued. The question of closing any particular boarding school before the end of term on account of war conditions is one for the school authorities to determine in the light of the circumstances of each case, subject, of course, to any directions by the competent military or civil authority.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the anomaly which has arisen under the National Health Insurance scheme of non-manual insured persons whose income fluctuates round the rate of £250 per annum who are compulsarily insured until they receive a war bonus, which may continue for only a short period, or their income exceeds that rate through working overtime, consequent upon the national emergency; and will he state what conclusion he has reached?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Horsbrugh): Where the wages or salary of an insured person are increased to more than £250 a year by some regular payment, such as war bonus, he enters at once upon a free insurance period, and it is not until his remuneration has remained above that figure for a period of at least 18 months that he would cease to be insured. At any time during that period he could elect, if he were qualified, and so desired, to safeguard his position in insurance by becoming a voluntary contributor. Where, on the other hand, the increase in his remuneration is due to payments of a fluctuating character, such as overtime, no account is taken of such payments in determining his rate of remuneration for the purposes of the National Health Insurance scheme, and his position in insurance is not affected unless and until such payments have become a regular feature of his employment.

Mr. Davies: Will the hon. Lady call the attention of the Minister of Health to the fact that the Minister of Labour is introducing a Bill to raise the limit to £420? If that were done under the National Health Insurance scheme, would not this anomaly be removed, too?

Miss Horsbrugh: That is another question. I think the hon. Member had better put it down.

Mr. Davies: asked the Minister of Health what reply he has made to the representations from approved societies for an increase in administration allowance, in view of the increased cost of printing, stationery and postage?

Miss Horsbrugh: The matter to which the hon. Member refers is under consideration, but my right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to make any statement.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. Lees-Smith: Might I ask the Lord Privy Seal to state the business for next week?

Mr. Attlee: Yes, Sir. Tuesday—Supply (16th Allotted Day); Committee. Debate on the Children's Overseas Reception Scheme.
Wednesday—Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution; Second Reading of the Truck Bill and of the Merchant Shipping (Salvage) Bill; and, if there is time, Committee and remaining stages of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Amendment Bill [Lords,] Middlesex Deeds Bill [Lords,] and Indian and Colonial Divorce Jurisdiction Bill [Lords.]
Thursday—Supply (17th Allotted Day); Committee. Debate on Agriculture.

Mr. Lees-Smith: The Lord Privy Seal will remember that the Prime Minister said the day before yesterday that he would welcome at an early date a frank and full discussion of the war. As that early date may very likely be next week, will the Lord Privy Seal bear in mind that this business may need to be readjusted?

Mr. Attlee: Yes, Sir. The Prime Minister hopes to be able to make a statement at a very early date. In that case,


if there is a desire for a Debate, the business will be altered accordingly.

Resolved,
That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn till Tuesday next."—[Mr. Attlee.]

HOUSE OF COMMONS (PUBLIC GALLERIES).

Mr. Lewis: Will you give some indication, Mr. Speaker, as to what is the procedure with regard to the public galleries, because the ballot books have been taken away and, as far as I am aware, no information has been given to Members as to what the procedure will be next week?

Mr. Speaker: I think that every hon. Member will receive a Paper explaining exactly what the procedure will be.

Mr. Lewis: When will that be done?

Mr. Speaker: Almost immediately, I think.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

That they have agreed to,—

Finance Bill.
Remission of Rates (London) Bill.
India and Burma (Emergency Provisions) Bill.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Littlestone-on-Sea and District Water) Bill.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Norwich) Bill.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Thirsk District Water) Bill, without Amendment.

Amendments to—

War Charities Bill [Lords,] without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the law of Scotland relating to enforcement of decrees ad factum praestandum, to solatium and damages, to contribution among joint wrongdoers, and to prorogation of the jurisdiction of the Sheriff Court; to amend and extend the Intestate Husband's Estate (Scotland) Acts, 1911 and 1919; to make provision regarding the powers of the King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer; to enable effect to be given to

International Conventions affecting Scottish Courts; and to amend the law of Scotland relating to criminal procedure." [Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill [Lords.]

LAW REFORM (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords.]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 68.]

CONFIRMATION OF EXECUTORS (WAR SERVICE) (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords.]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 69.]

Orders of the Day — SUPPLY.

[15TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1940.

MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £90, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Supply, including the expenses of the Royal Ordnance Factories."— [Note: —£10 has been voted on account.]

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Captain Margesson.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Tuesday next.

Orders of the Day — MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]

3.50 p.m.

The Minister of Supply (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Seven weeks ago, at the invitation of the Prime Minister, I accepted the office of Minister of Supply. I am bound to say that of all the strenuous and complicated weeks that I have ever spent, perhaps these have been the most strenuous and complicated of all. There was a delegate to a certain political conference last year who referred to nine "something" months, and I sometimes feel a little inclined to talk about seven "something" weeks. They have been, as the House will appreciate, exceedingly strenuous for all Ministers, and our lives have been very exciting in the light of events which have happened, but I ask the House to believe me when I say that I have devoted, and I shall continue to devote, every ounce of energy and ability that I have to this task, which I recognise to be a task of very great and vital importance to the nation, and indeed to the world.
I took over the running concern of the Ministry of Supply. It is not for me to say whether the lay-out of the Department was right or wrong, but it was not my lay-out. Moreover, there were decisions in policy taken a long time ago which vitally affected supply and were not altered until the Spring of 1939. That was the position when it was contemplated that we should send a very small expeditionary force to Europe in the case if a war, and that being so—and I am again not arguing whether it was right or wrong —it inevitably affected the whole structure not only of the Army but of the programme of supply. Clearly it is impossible at once to translate a change in strategical policy from a small army to a very large one, because the planning, preparation, and organisation of munitions production, like all other production, must need considerable time. It is in these circumstances that the Ministry of Supply itself began.
I determined to understand the Departmental machine. That was the first thing to do, because one can only control the machine if one understands it. I would like to pay my tribute to the staff of the Ministry of Supply for the ready co-operation, support and help that they have given me in my work, and now after seven weeks I am called upon, quite rightly, to give an account to the House of Commons, but it is only seven weeks. I ask for no mercy from the House, but I am entitled to ask for a little indulgence in these circumstances, and perhaps the House will be good enough to let me continue with my speech right through, because if I am interrupted, it will make this particular task one of more difficulty. The House will not think that I am afraid of interruptions; I rather like them as a rule, but not to-day. It will be the proper time later on when the House will be perfectly entitled to call upon me for a fuller account and can then evaluate my work. At the moment I am telling the House what has happened since 10th May, when Ministers took office in the new Administration.
I want now to give the House what information I can as to the progress of production. I remember these processes of Ministers giving information as to the progress of production in earlier days. I remember the cross-examination through which they went. Fortunately I do not


think that I undertook that particular cross-examination myself, but this is the difficulty in which one finds oneself. One cannot give—ought not to give—specific figures of information. That was argued before. It was even resisted, but if that was true then, it is infinitely more true now, and one must be exceedingly careful what information one gives. I am therefore going to give the House not over a long period, but over a short period since the critical days which have come upon us, some percentage figures which will give a broad indication of the kind of progress that has been made. I know at once that somebody may immediately say, "If it is a percentage of so much, it tells me nothing unless I know what the figure of production was." I do not deny that that argument occurred to me when I was sitting on the benches opposite. I appreciate it; I cannot answer it. I can only say that this is the best that I can do. I want to tell the House all I can consistently with the reasonable security and safety of the country.
I will come to some of the points about these items later on, but at the moment I will content myself by giving the percentage increase, indicating the increase in the monthly rate of production in June over the monthly rate of production in April, which is a very short period of two months. The increase in the output of cruiser and infantry tanks for June as compared with April—June being partly an estimate but one based upon fairly solid information—is 115 per cent., more than double; carriers, 64 per cent. Coming to a wide range of guns—and it is best for us to take the matter in this way—the increase ranges from round about 50 per cent. for two items up to as much as 228 per cent. for another item. The small arms show increases ranging between 49 per cent. and 186 per cent., and ammunition of various kinds shows an increase in June as compared with April ranging between 35 per cent. and 420 per cent. I think the House will agree that, as far as these figures go, that is an encouraging spurt in production during these critical weeks.

Sir Percy Harris: Will the right hon. Gentleman, if necessary, give some further particulars when we come to the Secret

Session and they cannot be made public, as perhaps Members would like to know?

Mr. Morrison: I will consider that request between now and the speech that I shall make at the end of the Debate. Even then the House will forgive me, I know, if I exercise my discretion. I do not ask the House at all to believe, and I do not claim, that the credit for this by any means entirely belongs to me. It belongs to the spurt of organisation at the Ministry of Supply, and particularly it belongs to the fine response of the working people in industry who responded to the appeals of Ministers, and indeed, responded to the actions of Herr Hitler and the more serious situation in France. We have received the most cordial co-operation from the trade unions in all sorts of directions. We are grateful to them, and let me say that we have received co-operation and support from the active managements of industry, who are, of course, vitally important in this matter. To all of them, I am exceedingly grateful.
As one instance of the new spirit which one is trying to bring about, may I say that on 19th June, only a week ago, I gave orders for very large quantities—millions—of a certain weapon. Already the output has reached nearly 250,000 a week, that is to say, between four and five times the previous production, and that output will grow. I think these facts are encouraging, although the last thing I would wish the House and the country to believe—because I do not wish the House and the country to be deceived —is that things are satisfactory, and I am not going to say so. They are not satisfactory. They could not be satisfactory in the circumstances of the case. I can only say that they are coming nearer and nearer to being satisfactory as the days pass.
This is a big and complex Ministry, taken over at a period of acute stress and strain, and I think the House will agree that there are two courses to follow in taking over a new Department. In the ordinary way, if things were quiet, if there were no dangers ahead, we should be tempted to say—though I am not sure that I would agree—"Blow it all up and start all over again." I do not think there is a case for that being done. In any case it would be an impossible proposition in the circumstances in which


we are met. One must, in all circumstances, maintain continuity of production and keep the machine in being. Therefore, I have pursued the other policy. I have recognised that in many cases change, that is to say fundamental change, would be almost impossible without endangering immediate production. Any Minister who endangered the continuity of production at this point would be undertaking a terrible responsibility. There are, however, other cases in which change is so essential, so vital, so absolutely necessary, that the risk of interference, for the moment, with production must be faced and accepted. There were two things in that direction in which fundamental change was carried through. One was the case of machine tools, to which I shall refer later, and the other was the case of tanks.
The problem of tanks has been this—and in dealing with this matter I am exceedingly anxious not to engage in controversy with hon. Members in any quarter of the House, but, on the other hand, the House is entitled to the facts. In conceiving the strategy of the war we must again remember that until the spring of 1939 the whole thing was based on the idea of a small Continental Army, and the tank required for Continental warfare is different from the tank which is required for warfare somewhere else. Consequently, there could not have been contemplated, in those circumstances, the actual circumstances of the war as they came about in the event. Moreover, this world is full of specialists and experts upon tanks. I do not say that because I resent it in the least. A large proportion of them may have very sound ideas, and many of them have first-class brains. You often find a first-class brain belonging to a man whose appearance might tempt you to think that he was not "all there." I do not scorn the cranks. I do not scorn the fanatics. The world owes much to cranks and fanatics, both in the course of politics and otherwise, but one must have discipline, and at any rate one must get decisions as to what is wanted in the matter of tanks.
The truth is that there was no clarification of what we wanted. [Interruption.] I do not wish to fall into an argument with any hon. Members, and I hope they will not seek to drag me into one. As I

say, there was no clarification of the idea of what tank we wanted, and, consequently, the list of tanks that we were making was a very wide list. Therefore, the Tank Board, under Sir Alexander Roger, made a recommendation which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War and I thought was right, namely, that the military opinion as to what they, broadly, wanted, in the way of a tank must come as far as possible through one focal point. That is to say, that we could not have a dozen voices about what tank was wanted, that there must be one voice about what tank or what three tanks we wanted. That principle has, rightly, been accepted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, and a new Tank Board has been constituted. There will be, it is true, two representatives of the War Office upon it, General Pope and Brigadier-General Pratt, both of whom actually fought with tanks during the present operations in France. It will be for them, on the Tank Board, to speak with one voice as to what, broadly, the War Office wants—not as to design, because design will be with the Ministry of Supply, but the soldiers must say what they want the tank to do. Broadly, they will give a kind of functional outline of what the tank is required to do, and it will be for the technicians and engineers and so on to go ahead, to design it and to produce it in the quickest possible way.
Various people will be heard by the Tank Board, and I have asked them to move with all possible speed and to come to decisions as to a limited number of tanks, and then let us get on with them. You do not make a tank by giving the order for it to-day and getting the finished article next week. It must be recognised that while a tank is not a warship, it is rather more like a warship than it is like a wheelbarrow. It is a very big thing and from beginning to end, from the point of deciding what you want, to the point of getting the tank completed, quite a time is bound to elapse. Therefore, we had to consider what to do in the meantime. I asked my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War—there had been discussions with the Prime Minister about it—what were the best tanks which we were now producing, what were the really good ones which were wanted and would do the job. Having been told


that, we are concentrating in the meantime on the greatest possible output of those tanks which have been proved satisfactory. That is what we have done about tanks, and I hope the House will agree that those are the right principles upon which to act. But, as I say, we must have decisions as to what we want. The argument cannot go on for ever—certainly not in these times.
There is another incidental point, not necessarily related to tanks, which I will mention at this stage. I told my people at the Ministry when I got there and the liaison officers of the War Office, that we must beware of over-elaboration of design, of frills, of fancy pieces which were not vital to the weapon doing its job. Moreover, I told them that we must seek standardisation wherever possible, because that helps in large-scale production, and We must not worry too much, as the British have worried rather too much in the past, about having everything finished to a fine point and with a beautiful polish. If the gun will shoot, and shoot accurately, that is all we want. The nice little touches will not matter. I have, therefore, asked the Department to proceed on those lines, and I know that the Secretary of State for War will co-operate in every possible way. That is the second case in which fundamental changes have been made, as they have been made in the machine tool control to which I shall refer later.
In the third case, I conceived it necessary to reinforce the staff at the Ministry. Following the military analogy, I had to apply what I thought was the best method of reinforcing the line by bringing up essential troops. This I have done by making certain new appointments at the Ministry of Supply. This has not been done on the assumption that the existing organisation or officers was in any way incompetent. If I may say so, we have to be careful, in this House, about preserving the morale and good spirit of public officers, whether they be civil servants or private-enterprise people who have been brought into the State machine. A State Department is a delicate instrument. While one may, on occasion, go for it to ginger it up and spur it on, one must be very careful not to demoralise it, because a demoralised organisation in a State Department can be as much a danger as one that is not quite up to scratch. But I did feel that the direc-

tion of the Ministry in some of its higher and, indeed, some of its lower branches needed strengthening. I knew I was going to drive them hard, and I did not want to see them dying in my sight. Therefore, I thought it wise to bring in reinforcements from outside in order to strengthen the organisation.
Sir George Gater, who comes to the Department, has had a very rich administrative experience and, since he has been in Whitehall, has had a varied experience of State administration. He has been appointed Joint Secretary to act with Sir Arthur Robinson. Sir Walter Layton has been appointed Director-General of Programmes, in order that we may have an over-all view of programmes and progress. That is exceedingly valuable. A Minister of Supply must have something more than mere pages of statistics set out in columns. He wants a shortish statistical summary of needs, accompanied by observations and suggestions. He wants to know why one figure may have gone wrong and why another figure has gone right. Sir Walter Layton, then, will undertake the duties of Director-General of Programmes and will have associated with hire the Director of Statistics.
The Director-Generalship of Munitions Production was a very large one, covering a wide field of production under an exceedingly able officer, Sir Harold Browne. It was really too big for one man to handle. One has to watch that kind of thing. In the desire to secure greater production, one must be careful about placing too big a bunch of things on the one Director. Either the work will not be done, or you break the man down, and that does not suit anybody. Therefore, I have taken ammunition production away from the Director-General of Munitions Production and appointed Mr. Maclellan Director-General of Ammunition Production. I have also appointed Mr. Davidson-Pratt to be Director-General of Chemical Defence and Mr. S. C. Leslie to be Director of Public Relations. This latter appointment does not refer to ordinary publicity work. It has been made because we are presented with all kinds of problems of morale and so on, within the industrial organisation and in relationships with the public. Salvage, for example, must be handled and the good will of the public secured. This will


be an appointment of great value. Then Mr. Geoffrey Crowther has been brought in as Director of Programmes under Sir Walter Layton.
In the Tanks Division, where Mr. Bennett had done very good work under very difficult circumstances, he has tendered his resignation, which I thought should be accepted. I have appointed Mr. Geoffrey Burton, who has considerable experience as a good production engineer—and we must recognise that production engineers of first-class calibre are very valuable in this business—as Director-General of Tanks and Transport, and he is going about his job in an energetic way. Mr. Mills has replaced Mr. Rowse as Controller of Machine Tools, and he has under him, as Deputy, Mr. Blair, who has a considerable and intimate acquaintance with machine-tool problems. Extra junior staff of the assistant- secretary and principal grade have been appointed. They will learn their job and if vacancies arise will be ready to step into them and ready to strengthen the organisation.
This is a little humdrum, but experience of public administration has taught me that if you have not got in an official organisation, direction of sufficient power and energy, you cannot get results, and it was profoundly important that what I have described should have been done. It will be seen, therefore, that my policy has been to make immediate changes where I was convinced that the balance of advantage was in favour of so doing; to reinforce the organisation as rapidly as possible, and to be prepared to deal ruthlessly and speedily with faults in organisation, inefficiency or slackness, wherever they existed. If there is any inefficiency or slackness in any way, inside or outside the Ministry, under the powers we now possess it can be dealt with, and I can assure the House that I will not hesitate to deal with it. We have wanted to make the transition from something like passive to active planning. Moreover, the military situation has been such that we could not stay pat where we were.
During the past seven weeks there have been changes in the military situation, and with each real change I have given instructions that the programme should be looked at again, and if need be

strengthened again, in the light of the new circumstances. Three times I have given the order that the programme should be looked at again, because in this war nothing stands still. This is a war in which revision and adaptability must be resorted to as and when the situation changes. It is not a static situation. We have concentrated, quite properly, on immediate things and immediate production for the next few months, but we will not forget the longer view for we all hope that this period of the last few weeks will in due course change. Therefore, we must think of long-term policies and of offensives as well as defensives. First things must come first, but we are not forgetting the future.
Very great attention has been and is being paid to the Area Organisation, and I have taken the step of asking my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry to take over, examine and cross-examine, sift and thoroughly look at the whole of the Area Organisation of the Ministry of Supply. I think a Minister is unwise if he does not fully use his Parliamentary Secretary. Moreover, I think it is a bad thing for a Parliamentary Secretary to be hanging around with nothing to do. It is good for him to be fully occupied. To be quite frank, I was not convinced that the Area Organisation which has grown up in other circumstances was as strong, self-reliant and vigorous as it could be. One does not want to leave it entirely on its own, but one must be ready for the possibility that one might have to leave the Area Organisation "on its own" in certain circumstances and be prepared for that time. The right thing to do is to find what can be done locally, what can be done swiftly, efficiently and properly, and co-ordinate that with the central Departmental organisation of the Ministry, so that there is proper liaison, self-reliance and vigour both at the centre and in the areas. My hon. Friend will, with the permission of the House, make a short speech later telling the House what he has been doing in this respect.
We want to marry capacity and requirement, and the Parliamentary Secretary has now been appointed chairman of a sub-committee of the Production Council which will deal with similar problems for all Departments concerned with the war. It is not enough for one Department to


solve this problem, because it may be the case that production capacity which is no good to me may be good for aircraft production or the Admiralty or vice versa. Therefore we are to have this sub-committee, over which my hon. Friend will preside, in order to deal with the Area Organisation for all production Departments and the Ministry of Labour, which is playing a great and important part in this matter; also to examine unused capacity, with the desire to find whether it can be used if it is at all possible, and look at it from the point of view of all the production Departments concerned. I have heard all the difficulties about finding new capacity and using it, and I beg the House to realise that some of these difficulties are very real. But I assure the House that I and my Department have instructed our officers that it is our job to utilise all possible spare capacity to meet all specified requirements. We gave directions some time ago as to priority to manufacturers, so that they should know what the priority war requirements are. There are, of course, snags about the business which it is wise hon. Members should face. Already they know a lot about them. Let me give an example. If there is a modern factory with a highly specialised plant, the idea comes quite naturally that it must be good for munitions production, but the very fact that it has a specialised plant may make it more difficult to produce munitions.
Another point is that quick and easy mass production is not as easy as it was in the last war, because mechanisation in military operations does introduce greater complexities into the kind of thing we want, and skilled men and machine-tool men are even more important to-day than they were then. Moreover, we must not live in the last war too much. We have had great help from a number of people who had extraordinary experience in the vast operations of the last war, and I have consulted them, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). I shall always be happy to do so, because it would be exceedingly foolish to ignore the vast experience acquired at that time. But I am sure everyone will agree, including the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, that perhaps there has been a little too much assumption that this war is like the last

war. It is not; it is very different. I have met people who have said they did certain things in the last war, but it was the kind of thing that has so changed now that I know they could not play their part in that particular job in this war. One must not assume that all the actualities of the last war are applicable to this war. Indeed, the man I am looking for is the man to handle the next war rather than the last war, although, of course, I very much hope there will not be a next war.
I want to thank Members of Parliament and firms for their advice and offers. I promise them that I will see to it, directly and through the Production Council sub-committee, the Area Organisation and the Parliamentary Secretary, that they are properly considered. I cannot say more. We will see to it that their offers are properly examined and particularly looked at in the area itself where we must mobilise and promote co-operation among producers. There are certain things that you cannot very well use in existing factories. That is true of filling factories, where all kinds of considerations of safety arise. New factories must be built. At the beginning of the life of this Government Parliament generously gave wide and sweeping powers over persons and property. They were extraordinary and extensive powers. The first Order has now been issued, under Defence Regulation 54 (c), to control undertakings. There is a list of 1,500 to 1,600 firms, under the control not only of my Department but of the Admiralty and the Ministry of Aircraft Production as well. Under that Order I am able to give fairly meticulous instructions to all sorts of people to do particular things. I can shift a management if it is incompetent, and I will shift it if it is incompetent. I can give instructions that if things are being done wrongly, they should be done right. These powers are very considerable. On the other hand, I will not use these powers in pursuit of any particular, pet theory. Whatever is done by the Right or Left, I want production. That is the sole consideration. Where firms are efficient, competent and public spirited, and where the active management is good, I shall give them every freedom and elbow room, so that they can work without hindrance. If these people do their job well, efficiently and economically and in the public


interest, I shall let them get on with it, but if they play the fool with the public interest or are incompetent, I will be on top of them.
Action has been taken already in particular directions, and I can give these instances. A firm engaged in the production of small-arms munitions seemed unable to achieve the desired rate of output, and an efficient expert was sent for by the Ministry, from another firm. He overhauled the arrangements, and the whole of his recommendations were carried out, with the result that the output of this firm has already shown considerable improvement. In another case of a very important firm alterations to the management were made at the request of the Ministry. Partly owing to these changes, the delivery of the firm improved by 35 per cent. during a month. There are several other cases now being dealt with where the output has been unsatisfactory, probably for reasons connected with the management. In one such case it is proposed to hand over production to be managed by a more efficient firm in the same district. It is hoped this will result in an improvement on existing contracts and increase the number of future contracts. I am sure that the House will agree that this is the right spirit in which and the right method by which these new powers should be exercised.
There is another difficult administrative problem in connection with which I have also decided to strengthen the staff—a problem which I dare say other Ministers have experienced. Apart from marrying capacity to requirement, there is this difficulty which every Minister meets: A lot of letters come in from Members of this House and are treated with great attention and seriousness. Other complaints come in from industrialists outside. Inquiries go to the Departments concerned, and replies come back. I wish it to be understood that in the vast majority of cases the Department is right, but as I have sat in my office I have sometimes paused and said, "Are you sure you are right in writing this letter? Do you know it yourself?" No Minister can know in all cases. I have no reason to believe that the letters are other than sound and proper, and I do not wish to do anything to cause any officer to think I distrust him. There is only one thing to do with an officer you distrust, and

that is to sack him, but so long as he is there, you must co-operate and work with him. Nevertheless, a problem remains, and sometimes in these complaints there may emerge missing links in the chain.
You may find some lack of co-ordination—I did not mean to use that word—some lack of correspondence in the processes of production whereby there is interruption in production. With the good will and co-operation of the heads of the Departments concerned, I have decided to appoint a director of special inquiries who will, not by long, wordy minutes and correspondence, but by walking around and seeing the people concerned, both at the top and at the bottom, find out whether there is anything in these complaints, take them up, and, if he finds something which wants to be put right, he can co-operate with the head of the firm and put it right in a friendly way. If it is something which should come to the Minister, then it will come to me. Therefore, in the future, on the question of complaint, my conscience will be a little easier, when I write to hon. Members, than it has been. I hope the House will agree that this is a good step. I am having a meeting with representative manufacturers who work for the Ministry, and I am going to ask them what they are grumbling about, what criticisms they have to make, and what suggestions they have to offer whereby production may be speeded up. I have asked them that the procedure shall be as speedy as possible.
The main elements of supply are raw material, which is a very extensive function of the Ministry. I think the position can be described as broadly satisfactory, but, nevertheless, I am having that organisation looked over to see that supplies are coming forward and also in regard to problems which arise on raw material organisation. The House will be glad to know that we have recently placed very big orders in America and elsewhere for raw material, and the instructions I have given are that it is better to be on the safe side and have too much than run the risk of having too little. We must also face the consequences of possible seige conditions; all that must be taken into account. On labour supply, I have to express my appreciation of the work done by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.


He has been bold, imaginative and helpful. I am troublesome to him, I am running after him so much for labour here and elsewhere, and he sometimes runs after me when he thinks me worthy of consideration. There is excellent co-operation between us, and I feel that the new and developing organisation at the Ministry of Labour is going to be a factor of enormous importance in the problem of supply generally.
The third element is machine tools; and this element is of the most profound importance. The sources of supply of machine tools are those manufactured by machine-tool firms in this country, second-hand machines in private hands, which we must not forget, American and other foreign purchases of new and second-hand machine tools, and, fourthly, idle plant. We are taking steps to comb thoroughly the resources represented by second-hand machinery here and abroad. We are using to the full the sources of production in our own country, which is up to £15,000,000 per annum now instead of £10,000,000, a 50 per cent. increase. This production is not as much as we want. The importation of machine tools from abroad, where we are buying on the basis that we cannot get too many, is £1,500,000 per month, not per year. As regards idle plant, it has been decided by the Production Council to take a census of the use of machine tools. There was a feeling that they are not being fully used, and if that is the case, it is a tragedy. If a machine tool is only used part of the day when it could have been transferred somewhere else, it should be done, and, therefore, we have had a census of machine tools use, and the results are under classification. This return will give information of the idle plant available, and instead of having to wait for me, I have delegated my powers to the Machine Tool Controller to requisition any plant which is now idle and capable of being put to effective use.
This again is a problem which is interdepartmental. Therefore, we have the advice of an inter-Services Committee, representing all the Supply Departments, meeting under the chairmanship of the Controller of Machine Tools every fortnight and meeting every other day for detail work. We calculate that machine tools are being made available from all sources up to 80,000 per annum. At the

present time the Machine Tool Controller has recommended representatives of the respective Services to allocate all the available processes in accordance with the priority production order. It is important that there should be co-ordination between the machine-tool use and the priority order. Moreover, we have to take into account the requirements of the Dominions and India in this matter. The House will be pleased to know that machine tools ordered from America and Canada and destined for France and tools ordered in this country for France are now being diverted to our own use. We shall get these machine tools from America, and when we have completed the list that was ordered it will be well over£3,000,000.
I will refer shortly to salvage. The House is familiar with the problem from questions which have been put. I decided to appoint a committee consisting of women Members of this House to inspect the salvage problem. I have a feeling that there was perhaps a little jealousy on the part of male hon. Members of this House when I appointed a committee entirely of women Members. It struck me that this was a job upon which women could be very effective, like many other jobs upon which they are very effective, and I felt certain that they would do the work well. My experience is that they have. After all, there have been hundreds of committees appointed upon which no woman has sat, and, therefore, I do not think male Members of this House should be at all jealous that a committee has been appointed upon which they do not sit. The chairman of the committee is the hon. Member for Anglesey (Miss Lloyd George), with the hon. Members for Wallsend (Miss Ward) and Dartford (Mrs. Adamson) as vice-chairmen. They promptly got to work and brought to me quickly a recommendation as to the future powers of the Minister. This task has been done so far under voluntary effort. Let me say that the great bulk of local authorities responded and instituted schemes. Some local authorities did it well, others not so well. This was all very well in the days of the Maginot Line, but it is not good enough now, and we have decided to take compulsory powers to compel local authorities, which will be followed by compulsory powers on the householder who does not play up. They may get


annoyed with us when we plant these compulsory powers upon them, but they must remember that they are vital in the interests of the nation. In this matter also there is more than one Department concerned—there are the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Food and the War Office—and we have, therefore, gone on the recommendation of the Committee presided over by the hon. Member for Anglesey and decided to appoint an inter-Departmental Committee so that the work of the Departments can be brought together properly.
Now let me make a short reference to the scientific research department, which is under the direction of an exceedingly powerful committee of scientists, with Dr. H. J. Gough, an eminent scientist, a Doctor of Science and Philosophy, a Fellow of the Royal Society and the Institute of Physics and a Member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers at their head. They have an advisory council under the chairmanship of Lord Cadman, and they have done splendid work in scientific research for the Ministry, which obviously I cannot talk about. But I should like to assure the House that proper measures have been taken for the consideration and examination of all proposals of a scientific and inventive character, and no trouble or expense will be spared. That department is one of great privacy. I can assure the House that this fine body of scientists is doing splendid work.
Our imports of munitions from the Empire and the United States are growing. We must not only manufacture the maximum munitions at home; our needs are so great that we must get the maximum also from abroad, both because we need them on their merits and for purposes of insurance. Therefore, we have made a comprehensive programme of purchases abroad. In Canada the new department of munitions and supply is taking over the work which was formerly done by the Purchasing Commission in that country under Colonel Greenly, who has been exceedingly helpful and done good work. But in the new circumstances the Dominion Government preferred to undertake that work as a Department of State, and Canada is vigorously co-operating with us, and orders to the value of nearly £5,000,000 have been placed in Canada in the last few weeks. Australia is sending

immediately small-arms munitions in large quantities from her own stocks of bombs, shells and fuses. The whole available surplus capacity in India has been taken up, and the Indian Government are bringing into production various private firms. Very big things are being done in India, and the most excellent spirit exists there, while the Secretary of State for India has been actively in consultation with me on the matter.
The requirements from America fall into two classes: urgent and immediate requirements, many of which are being bought from stock and include field guns, Thompson guns, magazines and ammunition, together with rifles and machine guns. Wherever we can lay our hands on suitable existing weapons in the United States—that is the wrong word—wherever we can obtain them we are obtaining them with all possible speed, and I have to thank the American authorities for their ready co-operation in the matter. We shall need also very large requirements in respect of machine tools and also in connection with our tank and gun programme. They are being dealt with by the Purchasing Commission in America, a highly equipped body which has appropriate contacts in the United States and is acting in conjunction with the Government of the United States. We must proceed on a long-term programme in the United States as well as an immediate programme, and that means that there must be co-operation with our Purchasing Commission for certain necessary adaptations of American industry. I can assure the House that a very comprehensive view is being taken of our requirements from the Dominions, from India and from the United States.
I now come to the end of my statement on behalf of the Ministry. I want to thank everybody who has so generously helped the Ministry during its existence and during my tenure of office. I wish to thank the workers in the factories for their very high morale and conduct in periods of air-raid alarms and warning. They have stood the strain with the very best spirit and with very great courage. We have experienced a very great loss of material and equipment in France, which has added to our problem and to the needs of our programme. We have revised that programme. I think the account I have given of the work of the Ministry indicates


that we are approaching our problem in the right spirit and in the right way. We shall welcome the co-operation of hon. Members in this House. I can assure the House that I will do my very best to see that the utmost results are obtained.

4.46 p.m.

Orders of the Day — ROYAL ASSENT.

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went; and, having re-turned—

Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

1. Finance Act, 1940.
2. Marriage (Scotland) (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1940.
3. War Charities Act, 1940.
4. Remission of Rates (London) Act, 1940.
5. India and Burma (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1940.
6. Lochaber Water Power Order Confirmation Act, 1940.
7. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Littlestone-on-Sea and District Water) Act, 1940.

8. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Norwich) Act, 1940.
9. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Thirsk District Water) Act, 1940.
10. Bournemouth Gas and Water Act, 1940.
11. Farnham Gas and Electricity Act, 1940.

Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."

Orders of the Day — SECRET SESSION.

4.57 p.m.

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): Mr. Speaker, I beg to call your attention to the fact that strangers are present.

Mr. Speaker: The Question is, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question put, and agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.]